Building an Uncopyable Brand Experience (with Daniel Den)

Welcome to the Frugalpreneur podcast. I am your host, Sarah St.John, and my guest today is the co creator of the X Factor Effect methodology where he and his team have helped over 20,000 students and clients grow their businesses. He is also the author of Ideas that Influence. Welcome to the show. Daniel Den.

Hey, Sarah St. John. Such a pleasure to hang out with you here on the frugalpreneur podcast. This, this is like episode like, I don't know, like 200, like what, 70.

Or something like that Somewhere in there.

Yeah, let's go. That's amazing. Congratulations.

Thank you. It's good to have you on. And some people might watch this on YouTube, others probably just listening.But you're wearing the Rainmaker shirt, which is your shirt, and I have one and I meant to wear it, but forgot.

Well, I really like every, like your style. Like, this is like a black T shirt that says Rainmaker. Right. I mean, which is cool, but I really like your get up today, so.

Oh, thank you.

Very stylish. Much more stylish than me. Must be that Dallas, Texas influence. And yeah, I think it's.

It might just be my own thing.

Oh, there you go. I. I was saying Texas is getting hit, but now, now I understand Sarah St. John is making tech.

Yeah, yeah, that's what it is.

Now it all makes sense.

Well, so I first found out about you on the branded podcast with my friends Larry Roberts and Sarah Losey, and I just loved it. And you were talking about.We'll get into that later, but yeah, you were talking about something we're going to talk about later that really interested me. And we'll get into that. But first, can you maybe give a little bit of your background how you got into entrepreneurship and all of that?

Sure can. So there's so many stories because I am 41, so I'm kind of, I'm kind of getting older now, and that's.

How old I am. 41.

Oh, wow. Wow. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I was born in 82, so there we go.

Oh, I was 83.

Yeah.

You must be 42 soon.

Yeah, I'm gonna be 42 soon, so. So there we go.But yeah, as a kid we didn't have much money, so like I would try to mow lawns and stuff like that, but once I discovered the Internet and so just cool side note, since we're both 41, did you know that makes us like the oldest millennials possible?

Yeah. Well, it's like some people say we're not even millennials, and others say we Are, but just barely.

Yeah, like we're barely millennials.

Yeah.

And so like, I, I remember grade this thing in, in the library. We like got the Internet. We were like, nobody knew how to use it and it didn't do much at the time. And we're like, huh, okay. So, yeah, this is weird.And then by the time I hit high school, we were really starting to use the Internet a lot more. The money making opportunities just started to compound over the years for people like you and I.And by the time we were in our 20s, it's like, oh, all right. It's giving. Hey. For me personally, I first made my first dollars on ebay, became one of those super sellers.I don't even remember what, what we were called at the time. And then I transitioned into affiliate marketing. And this story does have a point.So right around 2009, I hit a home run as an affiliate marketer, as a super affiliate. And I had this website where I was making up to a thousand dollars a day in profit. I was like, I'm planning my retirement.I've made it, I've made it in life. Because if you can consistently for the rest of your life be making like a thousand dollars a day, you're in a good spot, you're in a great spot.Eventually, after about six months, I did have somebody completely rip off the website. Completely copied the website word for word. And I was like, oh man, this sucks. But I didn't feel the impact right away.And so I just kept on, kept on advertising it, buying ads and running traffic to it and making my profit.But then that one turned into three, turned into five, eventually turned into more than 50 after about a year or so of these copycat competitors, I say that it ended with probably right over a hundred copycat competitors who just completely ripped off my website. And I eventually stopped running traffic to the website and moved on to bigger and better things.And that bigger and better thing was I was really frustrated, and rightfully so, that people so easily copied my business. And that is right around the time that I met up with my now business partner down in Brazil, Pedro Suparti.And we started creating this methodology called the X Factor effect methodology, where people could differentiate their business, become market leaders and category kings and queens, and differentiate themselves to the point where they became uncopyable inside of their niche markets. Because we had a lot of clients that were sick of the price wars and the copycat competitors, just like we were.And so we were, I guess you could say, perfect candidates for creating this methodology. And helping people differentiate and innovate in ways where they could become uncopyable in their niche markets.And for the past 12ish years, I've been working with Pedro Suparti. And that's where we've been able to help over 20,000 students and clients grow their businesses.

Oh, wow, that's awesome. So how did you meet Pedro?

I met Pedro because his brother in law, at the time, I had met his brother in law as a Mormon missionary. I'm no longer Mormon, but I was a Mormon missionary in Brazil.And so Pedro's brother in law, I had met him when I was a missionary and then he saw that I was doing all this online marketing stuff and then he was like, oh, you should meet up with Pedro, because Pedro has this marketing agency and he's doing some cool stuff. And so we, we jumped on Skype. I, like, I was like, wait, was it Skype? Yeah, for those of you that have ever heard of Skype. Yeah.

Does that even. I mean, I imagine it still exists.

But yeah, people still use Skype. So anyway, we did a Skype call like 12 years ago. That's where I met up with him. And we, we were like, hey, people really need this stuff.They need our help. And we've got insider knowledge from the United States. Nobody's doing it in Brazil. And so we used Brazil as a testing ground, as a blue ocean.Now we're spreading our methodologies worldwide. But it all started down in Brazil.So a lot of our students, our first students came straight out of Brazil and they were the first fator cheese, which means X factor. They were the first fator. She's students down in Brazil.

So are you able to share some of your methodology on the podcast or maybe tips on how you can differentiate, differentiate yourself, make yourself uncopyable?

Yeah, I mean, so, and when it comes to becoming a frugalpreneur, I mean, this is perfect because if you can differentiate yourself in a way where you become uncopyable, then it's a lot cheaper than trying to advertise the hell out of your business. Right? Just dropping buckets and buckets and buckets of money to try to build a, a brand quote unquote.There's a time and a place where for every dollar you put in, it brings back 5 and 10 and 15. But you're not there yet in the beginning.And usually it's because you lack some aspect of differentiation where you look just like everybody else in the market. You are caught up in the sea of sameness and so we have nine main pillars that we teach every single one of them a full course.So we won't be able to go into massive details, but I can share a few of them. So, for example, we'll actually start with the one that you can't avoid. It's we say, marry the perfect avatar.Now, of course, here on the frugalpreneur podcast, you've spoken multiple times about the need to end point your avatar, right? You can't just sell to everyone. Sarah, you've pinpointed your avatar as you work mainly with podcasters, right? That's your tribe. You understand them.That's the type of person you attract, and you work really well with them. Most business owners still haven't dialed in their avatar.If we're going to differentiate ourselves to the point where we're going to become uncopyable, you have to start with there. So that's the one pillar where it's like the boring pillar, where it's like, oh, I've heard this before.Gotta dial in my avatar, but we gotta reinforce it. You have to dial in the perfect avatar.When we say marry the perfect avatar, we say you want to choose the avatar that's your dream customer, and you want to be able to also attract that dream customer.So if I state my dream customer as boomers that are making over $10 million a year, if that is my dream customer, but I really suck at attracting boomers making over $10 million a year, then there's no marriage there. There needs to be a marriage there.Usually that marriage occurs because you're able to provide your dream customers with a want, a need or desire that you've accomplished yourself because of some past version of yourself. And so that's why Sarah St.John is such a great podcast host and why she's so great at attracting people that are looking to grow their podcast, because she has done the same thing. So if you want to be where Sarah is today, she's got a blueprint and she can help you get there.And so that's the first pillar where it's like the boring undeniable. We have to at least do this one pillar. Any thoughts on the first pillar, marrying the perfect avatar?

Well, I mean, yeah, you have to niche down and find your avatar. Otherwise. I definitely agree with that. That's definitely the first step is finding out who you serve and how you serve them.I definitely agree with that.

Yeah, niching down. It's one of my favorite analogies. Just so everybody finally has a sticky concept, I'm all about sticky concepts. Right?We'll eventually get into the book. Right? My favorite analogy is you go on a camping trip. Sarah's going on a camping trip. She's out of water. Okay. But there's a lake. All right?And so you turn on your stove, you get it all prepared because you need to boil some water. You would not go prepare your stove. It's all fired up. It's ready to boil the water, and then you wouldn't throw your stove into the lake.Now, why does this analogy work? Because if you haven't dialed in who your dream customer is, essentially you're trying to boil the lake.You are trying to boil the lake because you're trying to sell to everyone. But if you hand pick that portion of. I almost said agua.

There we go.

Just because I speak one word of Portuguese, I'm like, okay, now we're going to speak Portuguese? No. So if you're hand picking that portion of water and then you put it on the stove in your pot, you can boil that up and then it's good to go.That's what we need to do. That's the. The concept there of niching down. You would. You don't try to boil the lake.You try to warm up a portion of who you're trying to get excited about your products and service. So.

Oh, I love that analogy. Analogies are good that they help people visualize.Although for people watching the video version of this, you're like demonstrating you picking up water. I'm like, well, you probably wouldn't want to pick it up with your hands. You'd want me insult.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my hand.

We get the point.

My hands were my pot.

Okay.

But we're scooping it up with my imaginary pot hand. So now that the boring quote unquote pillar is out of the way, then I can talk about a few of the more exciting.One of my favorite ones is to lead your tribe. So when it comes to differentiating yourself to the point where you are uncopyable, the tribe Sarah St.John is going to build is always going to be different than the tribe that Daniel den is going to build. Sarah attracts different people than Daniel. Daniel attracts different people than Sarah.The traits, the rituals, the benefits, the experiences, everything that we share inside of the tribe and do as members of the tribe, in my tribe, it will be different than your tribe. And so the frugalpreneur tribe is a radically different group and way of doing things. And the experience is going to be unique.Unique because we are leading our tribe and unique because we attract different people and unique because we've branded our tribe in different ways and unique because we do things different inside of our tribe in different ways. So one of the easiest ways to differentiate yourself is to, yes, be like Harley Davidson, be like Apple, be like the frugalpreneurs.Build a tribe, build a community.Down in Brazil, we called ourselves the black sheep tribe because we did things differently, we think differently, and we're constantly trying to innovate and normal, quote, unquote, people view us as black sheep because we're trying to change the world. And so we had a tribe down there of black sheep.The current name for my tribe with the X factor effect methodology in English, I'm saying we're rainmakers. Black sheep are cool. But I wanted to do rainmakers. I wanted to differentiate my tribe in English from the tribe down in Brazil and Portuguese.So the whole point here is it's a great way to differentiate yourself. And if it would be laughable, this is why this is so uncopyable.If I tried to create my own frugalpreneur tribe and drive people to my tribe in a very similar way that Sarah St. John has done, eventually people are going to say, daniel, you're trying to be just like Sarah. That's silly. She's already built that tribe. Right.And so that's one of the reasons why it's. It's a more uncopyable trait. On the flip side, if we say, well, what is a copyable trade?My website, as a super affiliate that sold like crazy, what did people copy? They just ripped off the word. Most of the time they ripped off word for word. My website, this ales copy.And sometimes they changed a few sentences to fall within quote, unquote copyright laws. Which, by the way, if somebody steals your ad copy or your headline or whatever, it's really hard to try to sue somebody over that.So I didn't even try. I knew how difficult it is to try to get people to stop copying something that's so easily copyable.The barrier of entry for somebody to swipe my ad copy compared to build a similar tribe as me is worlds of difference apart. Swiping my ad copy takes five seconds. Building a tribe the way I've built a tribe, that can take years. And that's why those uncopyable traits.

Yeah, I love that. Build your tribe, nail down your avatar, or how did you phrase it with your avatar?

We say marry the perfect avatar and then.

And build your tribe. Yeah, I love that.

So Those are two of them. There's nine total. I'll share one or two more.One of our favorite things we say join the age of experience and concept here, is that people are tired of buying stuff, just buying stuff. So we all have access to enough stuff. Some of our houses are filled to the brim with too much stuff because stuff is too easily available.And that's why lots of people pay for junk removal companies to come out and they'll pay for storage that they're never going to look at ever again because people have too much stuff. But with this abundance of stuff, which we're all blessed to have so much stuff, what do people want when they already have everything?I mean, it's the whole, if you still have parents that are alive, it's the whole, well, what am I going to buy my parents for Mother's Day, for Father's Day, for their birthday? They already have everything, so what am I going to give them? Right?People are sick of stuff and buying stuff, but people still love a great experience. So what you do, even if you sell stuff, is what is you attach a great experience to the product or service that you offer.What people do not have enough of is great experience. People love amazing experiences. So we say make your product not stuff by adding great experiences to it and make your services the same way as well.Your service isn't just a service. Your service is a service that fulfills the promises of the service, but it's also an experience.

Yeah, I love that. That actually reminds me of. Because I guess I'll bring that up now. The interactive book box experience.If you're watching the video version, you can see it. I won't open it and spoil it for. For anybody. I mean, I will show you that this book comes in there.

Yeah, there you go. Ideas. That is cool.

I'm curious, how did you get the idea to do the book box experience?

The idea for the box experience came as I was sitting in a mastermind in Mexico between some friends. To one side of me was Ashley and Josh Latimer. Amazing couple. They have this kid war plan journal. See if I have it with me. There it is.So the kid war plan journal. So they were talking about how this flies off the shelf. It's like 97 bucks. It's an entrepreneurial journal for kids. Okay. A kid war plan journal.The pages are. They make it like all age and it's really hard for them to produce. And people like, absolutely love it.So I was like, yeah, people love it because it's different People love it because it's an experience, and people love it because it's an experience that benefits their kids. So they were talking about that.And then to the other side of me was Mark Stern, and he has an agency called the Custom Box Agency, and he was talking about how he gets so many people who move down the sales funnels and increase their conversion rates when they do these box experience. And I had just finished writing ideas that influence. And it was in the editing process. I'm sitting there and I'm the X Factor effect guy, and I'm.And I'm thinking to myself, am I going to launch this book just like everybody else, or am I going to practice what we preach and do things differently? And I said, you know what I think I got to do?I said, think I got to create the first ever free plus shipping interactive book box experience where people will have never seen anything like it, but it's the book. And then it comes with this box experience.And you open certain envelopes while you're reading the book, and you get access to different tools and everything. And Josh, he's like, that's an amazing idea. Daniel, I've got one question. If you do this, do you think it will double conversion rates?I'm thinking about, like, how cool this concept is. I'm like, yeah, you know what I think? I think it will.I think it can double conversion rates where I will sell at least twice as many books if it comes with this amazing box experience. And he said, if you think it's going to double conversion rates, then you.

Got to do it.

All right, there you go. That's it. I gotta practice what we preach. I gotta join the age of experience. I gotta create this amazing experience with this book.And then I spent a lot more time than I wanted to in order to produce it, because I had never done anything like it before. We had some delays with some of the pieces that came mass produced from China so that we could put the box experience together, but it was worth it.

Yeah. So did you have to, like, redo or add parts to the book?

I was really smart about that. So I.I told my editor, I said, okay, I have like these paragraphs I can show you really fast where at certain points in the book, I'm just going to have like this little thing that says, okay, timeout. Go to the interactive book box experience.So there's different parts of the book where it says, okay, now go in your box experience and do this scratch off and open this envelope and things like that. And so there's I think nine parts in the book. And so I basically just needed to add like nine paragraphs that called out.And then I added those same things in the audiobook version. I just added a little audio blurb that was like, okay, and now it's time to go and, and do this inside of the box. So.

Well, that's good that you didn't have to like really edit the content. You just added those little. Yeah, that's nice.

The only reason why I was able to do it that way so easily was because the book was already very well laid out and structured in a logical way. There's three natural parts in the book.Step one, Step two, Step three for being able to come up with, test and launch your next wildly successful marketing ideas.

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Price, unlimited potential so there's three I meant to get this read by the time did you want to kind of go over the three steps?

The easiest way to talk about the book because this all ties back to the X factor effect. So one of the pillars is create ideas that influence. So we, we revealed three.We revealed marry the perfect avatar, lead your tribe, join the age of experience and now create ideas that influence. Creating ideas that influence is all about coming up with big, bold, sticky and wildly successful marketing and business ideas. That's what it is.Ideas that move the needle in a big way in your business. And this has been vetted with our Students, this has been tons of research with me and my team over the years. Basically, it comes down to this.There's seven main elements for wildly successful marketing and business ideas. If you're intelligent and you. You understand the whole Avatar thing that you, you know that one of the seven elements has to do with avatar, right?The way the inside of the book, we say, first of all, wildly successful, sticky, bold marketing messages, they put their audience center stage. They make it all about the audience. So it's not about you. It's all about the audience. So that's one of the elements.Another one of the elements is that it's focused on a big single concept or idea, which is extremely important because there's a recent Forbes article that says that we're all exposed to about 4 to 10,000 different marketing pieces and ads every single day.And so if you imagine all the noise on the Internet and when you're driving and even just walking around your home, all the little things like vying for your attention, 4 to 10,000, that's insane. And so what's needed for a marketing message that breaks through the noise, undeniably, it has to be focused.If you're a Perry Belcher fan, there's a really cool thing that he taught way back in the day when I first was getting into marketing inside of one of his courses. It was the big thing that was big. Aha. Moment.And he said, most people make the mistake in marketing and in business of trying to introduce a second big concept or idea as part of their marketing message or part of what they're selling. So in other words, instead of selling one thing, they'll try to sell two things to you at the same time.And instead, people, they'll try to introduce the second big concept, and they think that they're going to increase their conversion rates, but the opposite happens. What happens is they usually cut their conversion rates in half. And the reason why for this is because there's just too much noise.We can't handle it. If people talk about two things or three things they talk or five things they talk about none, right?And so you got to talk about one, one big thing, and then your message can stick. And so that's two of the elements. Put your audience center stage, and then two have it focus on a single big concept or idea.I'll quickly list off the. The last five elements, and then we can talk about any one of them that you want to talk about. Sarah.So if you want to make a mental note like, oh, that one's interesting. Then we can talk about those ones. Because we don't have all the time in the world.

Right?

It's an entire book.

Yeah, yeah.

So really quick. So the third element is that it has an X factor. Then we have. It evokes emotion. We have that. It shares a story. We have it sticky and. Or shareable.And then the last one is it provides an aha moment. So with those additional five, that's the seven elements.And if you can have five, six, or seven of those elements as part of your marketing message, then you have a winner. Usually that's going to break through the noise and really grab the attention of your dream customers.

We could talk about the storytelling, because you have the three P's of storytelling, Personal, peer, and public. Oh, yeah, I'd love to hear about that.

Perfect. Yeah, yeah.So the whole concept around stories and analogies and everything is that at the end of the day, when you're sitting down and you're listening to Sarah's stories and Daniel's stories on the frugalpreneur podcast tomorrow, if there's anything that you remember, it's usually a story analogy, something along those lines. So we've shared, I don't know, 10 different stories so far. I don't know which one impacted the listener the most today.We shared a couple of analogies. We talked about not boiling the lake, which is a cool analogy.

Before we started recording, we were talking about Austin, Texas, and the Ladybird Lake. Well, it's a whole rabbit hole, but boiling the lake. Sorry, I just had to interject that that could be a good.If I ever start a true crime podcast about the Lady Bird lake situation, I could call it boiling the lake. Anyway, sorry, go on.

Yeah, yeah, and. And that's a sticky. That's a sticky story as well. That, like, that's memorable because Sarah's like, well, you know, Daniel, then. This is so Sarah.Sarah's like, you know, Daniel, Austin might not be as cool as we think because there's this lake and they found, like, 30 dead bodies in the lake. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, might be like a serial killer. And I'm like, you know what, Sarah?You're great at the entrepreneur podcast, but maybe you should also be doing a true crime podcast as well. The thing about stories is this stories move us to take action. So, for example, just the simple concept of don't boil the lake. So analogy stories.When you listen to a story versus listening to a fact, what happens is facts are facts, bullet points are bullet points, lists of steps and to do items, they're just lists. And then if you give me, okay, Daniel, you need to do step one through 20.Then it's like, well, okay, they get in line because I already have steps one through 700 that I need to be doing in my business. So you just added 20 more. So now I have 720 steps. Thank you so much. Right.That's the problem with just spouting off facts and telling people step one, step two, step two, step five, step ten. Without context, without stories, then it feels like overwhelm, and it doesn't move us to action.But when we share an analogy of don't boil the lake, something can click. Neurons in People's heads connect, and then they say, oh, now I get it.Now I understand why people have been telling me to niche down this whole time and why it has been so detrimental to my business because I've been trying to boil the lake.And then because people finally, like, really connect and really resonate with what you're teaching, then they're moved to take action, and they're like, all right, I gotta prioritize this. Now I'm gonna finally niche down.Likewise, if I share a story about how I had this website, I was making a thousand dollars a day, and it was so easily copyable, then you, as a listener might have resonated and been like, oh, oh, you know what? That's why people have been copying my business so easily, all my great ideas.Because every single thing I've implemented, the barrier of entry to copy, it is too easy. It's just too easily copyable. And so it's great to have a new idea.But if it's too easily copyable, then everybody's just going to get in line once I've put all the grunt work in to see if it works, and people are just going to swipe it just like they swiped Daniel.And then you're like, oh, so now I need to start thinking more strategically, and I need to go deeper, and I need to differentiate in ways that are more uncopyable. And I need to stack my differences that make a difference in a way where I'm such a unicorn in my market that people can't touch me.And then I really start to be viewed as that market leader or that category king or category queen, because I've positioned myself as a real leader that really differentiates, that has lots of X factors inside of my business that makes me very desirable to my dream customers. And so that's conceptually why it's so important for us to use story as part of our marketing message.And then tactically, the way it's done is that there's the three Ps of storytelling, which are personal stories, peer stories, and public stories. Personal stories are the stories that are closest to you, which by the way, are.Are the least likely to be copied because they're your own personal stories. Pretty much, people can't copy your personal stories, which is. It's another great differentiator to use personal stories.Peer stories are the stories about your friends and family, people one degree of separation away from you. And sometimes the story about your mom involved you, but you're telling the story about your mom, it involved you.And it's another great type of story. Testimonials fall into this category of great stories that can really boost your marketing message.Your customers stories are more powerful than you just talking about how great your business is. And so there's personal stories, the stories closest to you, peer stories, one level of separation away from you.And then public stories are the stories in the public that affect us all.And if we share our take on it, our opinions on it, then people resonate with public stories as well, because they are the type of story that affects us all.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I like, I love alliteration. So anytime it's like the three P's or whatever, I love that. Which, by the way, both of our names have alliteration.

That mine's fake, so.

Oh, is it?

Yep. My. That's. And, and I love. And I love you have a story here. I like revealing. Yeah, there's a story behind it there.

I want to hear the story.

Story. Yeah, See, and people remember the story. So there you go. So. So the story behind it is. So my. My actual last name is Pereira Pereda.And Pereira is a very popular name in Brazil and in Spanish as well, and in Portuguese. It got to the point working with Pedro, and this is just super interesting from a personal branding aspect.So if you are considering your personal brand, maybe you're going to get an aha moment and maybe this is going to move you. And then this further reinforces why stories move people and why it's so important to teach through stories.For me personally, I started working with Pedro and for the first two years I was known as Daniel Pereira. The problem with that is that Portuguese is my second language.And I would get up on video and I would speak perfect quote unquote Portuguese with an American accent. Okay, So I was speaking grammatically correct Portuguese with an American accent. They weren't buying it. The comments were rolling in.Why is this guy just pretending to be an American? Over and over and over again, Every single day, at least one comment of this guy's pretending, his name's Daniel Pereira. He speaks Portuguese.He's pretending to be American. Why the fake accent? I'm like, no, you don't get it.This is really the public perception when you're, like, promoting videos, you're putting more and more out there on social media. It gets out of control. You can't individually, like, tell everybody, no, actually, no, I really am American. It's just too burdensome.And so from a personal branding aspect, we had a disconnect with my name in Brazil. My legally given name, by the way, my dad was born in Venezuela, and that's why my last name legally is Pereira.We had this disconnect and perception in the market. There was a need for a personal brand change. And so Pedro is actually the one that was like, you know what? I think I got alliteration.It'll be easy for the Brazilians to remember, and they won't think that you're Brazilian or it's going to be Daniel Din. And at first I hated it. I was like, ah. And I was like, all right, all right, we'll give it a shot. And yeah, it worked.And so we switched me over from being Daniel Pereira down in Brazil to Daniel Dinner. And then it actually worked out really well for me to just say, okay, from here on out, moving forward, my professional name is Daniel Din.And then I have my legal name for everything else.

So, yeah, I love that. And it kind of reminds me of Daniel in the Lion's Den.

Yes, there is that as well. Now, the only problem logistically, for side note, personal branding. So you want to get the SEO for your name.I'm finally, because I've been doing so many podcasts, appearances and have more and more videos out there on social media and stuff, I'm finally partially ranking for Daniel Din. And then it's like half of the listings actually show my stuff in some way, shape or form or like a podcast interview or something.And then the other half are like, yeah, Daniel and the dot lines in. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, more considerations when it comes to personal brand for those of you working on figuring out your personal branding.

So, yeah, I love that.Maybe the last thing I'd like to talk about is if someone wanted to create a book box experience, how do you even start in terms of gathering ideas for what to put in them and then how to Try to do it affordably.

So the best advice I have if you are going to turn your book into an experience. There is actually a book that I have and I use it as an example when this question comes up. So I suggest going much more simpler than I did.So if you've ever bought Michelle Cunningham's free Flesh book, do it Anyway Girl, which I have, because that's just how I roll, right? You know, gotta, gotta support my friend Michelle Cunningham. So anyway, so I bought this book.She has a much more simplified version of creating an experience with what she does. I went all out. What she does is she has a few little inserts that come with it, which are a lot cheaper to. To do.And then she has this really bright pink packaging that it comes in the mail with. And when it arrived, I, I didn't grab the mail before my, my daughters did. My youngest daughter, she runs what is it? What is it, Daddy?What is it like? And I, I like. I, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's. It's my book. She's like, can I keep the packaging?Because it's just this super neon pink packaging that she put it in. And I opened it up and there were some really cool little inserts. And it was an experience in and of itself. And it was a lot.When it comes to frugality, it was a. It was a lot more cheaply done, but. But still very impactful at the same time. And so that's one approach to do it.If you're going all out like I did, then what you need to do logistically is that the book has to be structured very, very well, where you have clear checkpoints inside of the book and you're leading people towards a result. Because I worked with Mark Stern, he helped me put together the box experience. He helped me source the items.He said, thank goodness you structured the book the way you did or this would have been a mess. Because the average book, and when I say the average book, we're not dissing the average book, but the average book.We're not talking about the top 1% of books, we're talking about the average book. The average book is not well put together. That's just the reality of it. And so structure it really well.Keep in mind different tools and extras and bonuses that people could use and have access to at certain points in the book in order to help them achieve a result. And so our book is a very good mix of.If you wanted to just read the book and be inspired, there are tons of stories, examples and tons of things that you can glean from just by reading the book. And lots of sticky, shareable moments. Aha. Moments inside of the book. It's. It's got it. All right.But at the same time, if you are in need of a big, bold, sticky and wildly successful marketing campaign, the book promises that and then it actually delivers that step by step as you go through the chapters.So that by the end, if you followed the advice in the book and gone through the box experience, you can have launched a wildly successful marketing campaign as well.

Yeah, I love that. And if people want to see firsthand what that experience is like, they can go to Big Ideas box and get their box. And it is free plus shipping.So it was like 20 bucks and you get the book and everything in it, which I don't want to spoil. But yeah, when you were on the branded podcast, I saw and I was like, oh, I have to do that, I have to get that box. So I love that.I love just everything you're doing because of.

Because of the experience, Right?

Yes. Yeah, it makes you hard to forget.

Hopefully that serves as another example of this whole X Factor thing. So I have a bookshelf full of business books that I have not read. We all have it, right?Yeah, it's like, oh, I got another book, but which ones did I actually read? Right.And so when you can deliver people an amazing experience on top of the product or service, this is beyond book, this is communities, this is courses, this is E commerce products selling on Amazon, whatever it is, you can include things.Some of the best listings I've seen that have sold like wildfire on Amazon, it's the product and it's bundled with all these extra little goodies that enhance the experience and then people just go crazy over it. At the end of the day, if you look at what Amazon, because Amazon for just being honest with ourselves is a bit predatory.If you start selling a one off item that sells like crazy that's too easily copyable, then Amazon will copy it.You create a one off that is part of an entire experience, then you will have raised the barrier of entry for Amazon to easily one off at themselves and just create their own listing with a similar product. It'll be like, oh no, like that was too much work.We're not going to copy that one because they're cherry picking the easy stuff that they can one off and then start selling for themselves because they own all the data. Right.But that's back to the differentiation thing and back to the story of how I was so easily copied when I had my website where I was making up to a thousand dollars a day profit. If it's too easily copyable, then you need to say, okay, what I have is a starting point.Now let's start stacking the differences that make a difference and let's start adding differentiators and let's start innovating in ways where we become more uncopyable. And then when people look to us and decide that's worth copying, then instead of them actually copying you, they say, yeah, but that's too much work.I'm not. And then they respect you and they're like, one of the best.Then you have that positioning as a market leader or a category king or queen, and then you win.

Yeah. And I noticed the book isn't on Amazon, I don't think. Right. You can only. Yeah, yeah. Cause that would.It's like, well, you couldn't really sell it on Amazon because then all the. The little prompts about to go to the box and stuff would be irrelevant.

So, yeah, I can send boxes to Amazon and sell it on Amazon, but then I wouldn't have my otos. I wouldn't have data, my entire funnel. People told me I was crazy for not putting such an amazing book on Amazon.I realize I'm missing out on readers, but at the same time, it was all on purpose. And one day I might.I might still put just the normal book on Amazon, but to fully practice what we were preaching and to fully give people a full experience along with the book, I wanted to give people the option to buy it first as the box experience. So. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that, Sarah. Yeah, big ideas. Box.com is where you can experience it for yourself.

Yeah, exactly. Well, I really appreciate your time today, coming on and sharing some stories and about the book, box experience and all of that. So thanks so much.I really appreciate it.

Sarah St. John. Thank you. Frugalpreneurs. Let's change the world together.

Sounds good. We'll start with reading the big box or reading ideas that influence and going through the big box.

Nice. Let's go.